巴拉诺维奇教授访谈：他应享人的尊严——塔里木，一个维吾尔人续篇

首发：中国数字时代
相关阅读：塔里木，一个维吾尔人

2014年-2016年期间，维吾尔诗人、学者Ablet Abdurishit Berqi（中文音译名：阿不都艾海提·阿不都热西提· 白尔克），中文笔名塔里木，在以色列海法大学亚洲研究系深造，研究二十世纪维吾尔文学。尼莫德·巴拉诺维奇（Nimrod Baranovitch）教授是白尔克博士（塔里木）的导师【1】。白尔克博士研修结束回乌鲁木齐后，于2017年底被抓捕，具体时间不详，下落不明。白尔克博士是自2017年4月以来，被拘押、抓捕或强制失踪的至少338位维吾尔知识份子精英之一。迄今据保守估计，被拘禁于新疆“再教育营”的维吾尔、哈萨克、柯尔克孜等突厥语系民族的人数已超两百万。

白尔克博士（塔里木）在以色列深造期间，与华人诗人唐丹鸿成为朋友。唐丹鸿得知他被捕的消息后，撰文《塔里木，一个维吾尔人》，记叙了他们简短的交往。并对他的导师巴拉诺维奇博士做了如下采访【2】。

唐丹鸿：巴拉诺维奇教授，我想请您简单介绍一下您的学术研究领域。

巴拉诺维奇博士：我主要是从文化的角度：文学、诗歌、流行歌曲、以及电影等方面来研究中国。比如通过分析电影来了解中国的社会问题和政治问题。

二十年前，我开始研究中国的流行音乐。我的目的不是研究流行音乐本身，而是通过流行音乐来分析其他社会和政治现象。那时我开始对中国的少数民族感兴趣。这二十年来，我大部分的研究跟中国的少数民族有关，主要分析他们的艺术家和作家。比如我写了一些有关蒙古族音乐家腾格尔的论文，通过他的作品来分析蒙古人在中国的状况，他们有怎样的感受？他们的民族身份如何？我也分析过藏族阿来的《尘埃落定》。最近我开始研究民族和自然环境的关系。自然环境的退化怎样影响了中国的少数民族，主要研究的是草原退化对蒙古族生活方式的影响，以及怎样影响了他们的思想和观念。比如在2011年，内蒙古发生过大规模抗议，我分析过这次抗议示威，与草原退化的关系。我还计划研究西藏的自然环境变化，怎样对藏族人造成影响。关于新疆，我最近发表了一篇文章，英文标题是”The Impact of Environmental Pollution on Ethnic Unrest in Xinjiang: A Uyghur Perspective” (Modern China, 2018).。目前新疆空气污染很严重，北京的空气污染比过去好多了，可是大部分人不知道，实际上很多空气污染源从北京转到了新疆，很多工业搬到了新疆。我探讨了空气污染和水污染怎样影响了维吾尔人和汉族、以及维吾尔人跟国家的紧张关系。我最近也开始研究中国在新疆的语言政策怎样影响维吾尔人。这一政策如何改变维吾尔人的语言和行为？维吾尔人有什么反应？是否接受?谁支持谁不支持?语言政策因素怎样导致维吾尔人的不满，维吾尔人感到他们的语言马上就要消失了。

唐丹鸿：您研究的领域在中国非常敏感。那么您的研究有没有什么困难？有没有遇到过来自中国方面的干涉？

巴拉诺维奇博士：没有特别的困难。只有一次，2013年我到乌鲁木齐的时候，我知道有人跟踪我。当时我和白尔克博士在一起，那是我第二次见他。还有一次，我在一个酒店住了一个晚上，第二天酒店的人说：你不能继续住了。因为你是外国人。这是中国的政策，不是任何酒店都可以接待外国人。除此之外，我没有遇到过大的干扰。

唐丹鸿：请您谈谈白尔克博士。你们是怎么认识的？他在以色列期间从事了哪些研究？他给您的印象等等。

巴拉诺维奇博士：我是2004年由朋友介绍认识白尔克博士的。那是我第一次去新疆，我在乌鲁木齐呆了几天，每天跟他在一起。可以说我在新疆最早认识的人就是他。我们成了好朋友，从那时起我们就一直保持联系。他是一部活的百科全书。我们的交谈会带来很多的话题，因为我们能刺激对方思考和交流。白尔克博士是一个非常严肃和理性的学者，但同时他很有幽默感，风趣顽皮，我们常常一起大笑，与他谈话我很享受。他有着丰富的性格，一方面是学者的理性、严谨、冷静分析，另一方面他有诗人的灵魂，充满灵性与感情性。

白尔克博士是2014年来的以色列，在以色列呆了两年。这期间，他写了一篇学术文章，题目是《阿不都哈里克·维吾尔》，分析了二十世纪三十年代维吾尔著名诗人阿不都哈里克·维吾尔的诗歌。阿不都哈里克·维吾尔(Abduhaliq Uyghur)是维吾尔近代文学的代表人物之一，二十世纪二、三十年代时，他写了一些对维吾尔族影响极大的诗歌。另外创建并领导由维吾尔知识分子组成的起义组织，结果被中国军阀盛世才杀害。白尔克博士的这篇学术论文写得很好，他完成后提交给了中国的一份学术刊物，好像没有发表。此外，他还写了关于当代著名维吾尔作家买买提明·吾守尔 (Memtimin Hoshur)的短篇小说《胡须风波》的论文。买买提明·吾守尔非常幽默，在他的小说《胡须风波》里，他讽刺了政府干预维吾尔族的风俗习惯，也讽刺了维吾尔人对政策的反应。白尔克博士的论文分析了这篇小说。我很欣赏他的这篇论文，建议他译成英文发表。学术界研究维吾尔当代文学的人很少，白尔克博士是屈指可数的研究维吾尔当代文学的学者。在以色列期间他回去过一次，有关人员请他“喝茶”，让他不要发表这些文章。

白尔克博士在以色列深造的两年期间，我们几乎每周见一次面，每次三、四个小时，总共有几百个小时的谈话。我们的话题非常广泛。白尔克博士是一个充满好奇心的人，他像一块海绵，吸收新知识的能力极强。他每到一个地方，眼观耳听，分析、吸收各种信息。来以色列后不久，他就对以色列的历史、社会、政治做了很多探究和了解。他记忆力非常强，当我们谈历史的时候，你发现他对一个事件发生的时间、原因、细节、结果等等都一清二楚。我们经常谈论以色列，也谈论中国、土耳其等等，议论以色列与土耳其、与美国的关系等。他不但知识广博，而且不断增加和更新，他的分析能力和批评能力都给我留下了深刻印象。

来以色列之前，白尔克博士从来没有出过国。到以色列是他第一次出国，他非常兴奋。他说，在这里第一次感受到了自由，真正的自由！从上个世纪九十年代起，由于他对当局提出过批评，所以在很多场合，他受到了直接或间接的威胁与监视。这些压力在2006年的时候达到高峰。他受到的威胁包括：必须妥协或配合，否则会殃及他的家人。在教学的时候，他知道，每个班的学生里都有学生线人，会向领导报告他讲课时说了什么，因此他讲课的时候是没有自由的。也有同事会告诫他，不要讲这、不要说那。而在以色列，他说：感觉像超现实！没有人跟踪、没有人打小报告！他第一次感受到了完全的自由。可以说在以色列的两年里，白尔克博士一直都很兴奋和高兴。

因此我想，他现在在“再教育营”里，一定很痛苦。有一些人，可能适应牢狱生活容易一点儿，但对白尔克博士来说一定很难适应。他这个人那么热爱和珍惜自由，而现在完全失去了自由。监狱对他是最痛苦的惩罚。

除了写学术论文，白尔克博士还写了不少关于以色列的散文和诗歌，我记得总共有18篇。他到以色列后写的第一篇散文是《海法的猫》。那时他到海法不久，他注意到街上、大学校园等等很多地方都有猫，没有主人却与人共存，在外面的公用长椅上，猫坐着人站着，他喜欢这种景象，他认为这种景象还象征了其他一些更重要的东西。

唐丹鸿：他似乎不太喜欢阿拉伯人？我记得他说过，他住的海法大学的公寓宿舍里有几个阿拉伯学生，他似乎不太喜欢他们，他跟你说过吗？

巴拉诺维奇博士：不，白克尔博士不是这样的人，他不会不喜欢一个民族，而是不喜欢从民族主义角度看人。他跟我说过，他想和住在同一宿舍的阿拉伯学生交流，可他们认为他是一个穆斯林，却来以色列学习，这就好像他在跟以色列政府合作，所以那几个阿拉伯学生不想跟他交流。他们不理解，作为穆斯林的白尔克博士为什么选择到以色列留学？

唐丹鸿：您是犹太人，白尔克博士是穆斯林。在今天的形式下，您和他的身份以及关系尤其意味深长……

巴拉诺维奇博士：我想谈一下你提到的宗教背景问题。是的，白尔克博士是穆斯林，我是犹太人。我们十多年前第一次见面后就一直保持着联系。我们是好朋友。白尔克博士生来就是穆斯林，可他不是信教徒，正如我一样，我是犹太人，可我不是犹太教徒。在以色列以及在中东，犹太人跟穆斯林、跟阿拉伯人好像是最可怕的敌人，可是在中国的时候，你突然发现，犹太教跟伊斯兰教其实有很多共同点。伊斯兰教里的很多故事、历史和思想，原本是出自犹太教的，受到了犹太教的影响。当然伊斯兰教和犹太教有所不同，但是二者有很多共同点，包括诸多历史人物，比如犹太教里的先祖亚伯拉罕、以撒、雅各等等，穆斯林承认犹太教的这些先祖的权威，在伊斯兰教里有着同样的先祖、同样的人物。最主要的区别在于，像基督教一样，伊斯兰教增加了一些人物，而犹太教不承认以后增加的先知和人物，可是基督徒和穆斯林承认以前的先祖存在，也承认这些先祖的重要性。而伊斯兰教也加了自己的先祖，穆罕默德，是最后一个先知，犹太教不承认，可穆斯林承认穆萨和其他人物。当然，还有一神论这个观念。犹太教和伊斯兰教唯一的上帝也是共同的上帝。，从这样的角度看犹太教和伊斯兰教，二者差别不是很大。如果跟中国文化比较，其实穆斯林与犹太人真的是亲戚，思想很接近。

我和白尔克博士常常一起嘲笑极端思想，他从穆斯林的角度嘲笑极端穆斯林的毛病，我从犹太人的角度讥讽犹太教的极端份子。我们都同意这一要点：无论什么宗教走向极端，影响都非常坏。这方面我和他从来没有什么矛盾。白尔克博士是一个非常开放的人，我们之间不同的宗教背景完全不是问题，相反宗教成为了一座桥梁，因为我们常常发现两个宗教之间的共同点。而且我们觉得很奇怪，以色列的犹太人和穆斯林常常争执，不该是这样。

白尔克博士常常跟我说，大部分维吾尔知识份子，虽然是穆斯林，但不是宗教信徒，他们不是从宗教的角度看待以色列和犹太人，而是从历史的、少数民族的角度：犹太人是一个两千年受压迫的民族，没有自己的土地和国家，受其他民族压迫，可是犹太人最终成功保持了他们的文化，保持了他们的身份……不少维吾尔知识份子其实尊敬和佩服犹太民族，把犹太人视为保持本民族文化、语言、风俗习惯的榜样。当然我也知道，白尔克博士关于以色列的文章也影响了不少维吾尔人，使他们认识到了以色列。

其实，不只是白尔克博士，好几年以前，也有不少维吾尔族知识份子对我说过那些观点。信教的维吾尔人从宗教角度看以色列和犹太人，不会这样说。而维吾尔知识份子，他们虽然是穆斯林，可他们的观点比较开放和独立，更倾向于从民族而非宗教的角度看以色列和犹太人。而且，不少维吾尔知识份子常常批评本民族的宗教极端份子。白尔克博士就曾说，伊斯兰教对维吾尔族的影响，使一些维吾尔人变得极端。他也常常批评这个趋势。实际上，不少维吾尔族知识份子对本民族的宗教行为提出过类似批评。

唐丹鸿：我注意到，有的以色列犹太人认为，以色列应该效仿中国，将巴勒斯坦人关进营中。但人们也看到，欧美有不少犹太人，学者，还有拉比，为维吾尔人今天的苦难遭遇呼吁。您能对此谈谈您的感想吗？

巴拉诺维奇博士：你注意到的那个欧文·哈桑 (Oren Hazan)的言论，不值一提，真的，他不重要。我有一些国外的维吾尔朋友，他们也听到过欧文·哈桑说的话。他们问我：“怎么回事？以色列国会这样说？”我说：“并不是以色列国会，只是一个不值一提的国会议员，他也说过很多别的蠢话。你不要听信他的话，也不要以为他代表以色列。我知道不少以色列人，他们的想法跟那个欧文·哈桑很相似，我看到过他们回复的评论，这不能否认。可是我觉得大部分以色列人，如果他们有知识和足够的信息的话，肯定不会这么想。一般的以色列人，这方面的知识很少，他们并不知道，维吾尔是什么？维吾尔人是谁？他们不了解情况，所以大部分人对新疆当下的局势不说什么。

唐丹鸿：我接触的维吾尔人不多，白尔克博士是唯一与我见面、有过长谈的维吾尔人，他是愿意与汉人对话的人……

巴拉诺维奇博士：我知道有的维吾尔人不愿意和汉人接触与对话。但是白尔克博士有不少汉族朋友。虽然他的维吾尔民族身份意识很强，但他不会从“民族”角度来看待别人，而是超越民族意识，坚持“人”的立场。他会和汉族朋友讨论很多问题，有时也会直接批评，批评大汉族主义、批评政府等等，但他并不割断与汉人的联系，他还是与不少汉人保持了良好的关系。他始终强调的是“人”,他尊敬任何人，包括尊重汉人。白尔克博士非常热爱他的民族，热爱他的母语，但他并不否认或贬低别的文化，并不否定或贬低其他民族、其他语言。从上个世纪九十年代起，他开始偶尔用中文写作。他尝试用丰富的形式表达自己感情，所以当他觉得，有些内心感受用中文表达更适合时，他就用中文写诗歌。他也从来没提倡新疆独立。他认为自治是最好的、最现实的方案。可是他觉得，新疆现在并没有真实的自治。他对政府的不少批评是针对这个重点的。他更从来没有主张暴力，从来没有主张极端方式。

很遗憾，白尔克博士这样的人被抓捕，是一个巨大的错误。他现在失去了自由，受什么“再教育”。像他这样的人，坐牢，是非常不合理的。我希望白尔克博士能从“再教育营”出来，能继续从事他的学术生涯，应享人的尊严。

唐丹鸿：你认识的维吾尔学者或作家、艺术家，除了阿布莱提在“再教育营”里，还有别的人吗？

巴拉诺维奇博士：我间接认识的有，比如我认识的人的亲戚。还有一种可能，我认识的人，已经在“在再教育营”了，可是我不知道。因为有很多人已经被抓捕了，谁也不知道他们在哪里。

有很多我研究过的人，已经被抓捕了。我和他们没有像跟白尔克博士这样亲密的关系，比如新疆师范大学校长阿扎提·苏里坦（Azat Sultan）教授，他是我研究过的人，他好像也进“再教育营”了；还有一位诗人叫Perhat Tursun，我也研究过他的诗歌，他好像也进去了。还有两个有名的歌手：Abdurehim Heyit 和 Ablajan Awut Ayup ，他们也进去了。后者被誉为新疆的迈克尔·杰克逊，他被判了八年，You tube有很多他的歌曲。我和他们没有直接的来往，可是因为我研究这些人，我有他们的文章、诗歌和歌曲，我知道这些人的活动、以及他们的作品。。现在有很多维吾尔艺术家、作家、知识份子，他们都在“再教育营”里。

采访时间、地点：2019年1月21日 以色列 海法大学

唐丹鸿记录

2019年2月9日完成整理

注：

【1】尼莫德·巴拉诺维奇（Nimrod Baranovitch）：1965年出生在耶路撒冷。1992从希伯来大学东亚系和音乐系取得学士学位。1997毕业于美国匹兹堡大学音乐系获得博士学位。海法大学亚洲研究系创始人。专注当代中国文化、社会和政治研究，集中于流行文化和文化政治，集体记忆和史学，少数民族（主要是蒙古族，维吾尔族和藏族）及其与汉族和中国的关系。

主要著作：《中国新声音：流行音乐，民族，文化性别和政治，1978-1997》，加州大学出版社2003年。文章发表在“亚洲研究期刊”，“中国季刊”，“近代中国”和“中国期刊”上。

【2】采访问答为中文。

诗歌，我的避难所

塔里木(维吾尔族)

我从新疆来

请允许我露营

我不想打扰酒店

床单怕被我的皮肤燃烧

水龙头担心被我污染

我从新疆来

在机场

请允许我赤脚过安检

我习惯赤脚放羊

我习惯赤脚农耕

草类喜欢被我抚摸

农田喜欢被我踩

我从新疆来

不要用怀疑的目光看我

刀留在厨房

我从警察手中才知道

枪是什么模样

我最熟悉的武器是犁和坎土曼

炸弹是什么？

是不是一颗失望的心脏？

我从新疆来

我手脚善于种地

跳舞

我嘴巴善于歌唱

为人类的安慰祈祷

我眼睛

习惯于散发爱的光亮

我从新疆来

不要拿我的尊严开玩笑

跳舞不是胆怯懦弱

唱歌不是耐心没完无了

2014年9月25日，北京

2012年，北京10号线地铁

在她眼中

我的黄头发和棕色眼睛

带和田口音的普通话

和其它很多跟我有关系的符号

不知道代表着什么

在她眼中

我是会英语的老外

她即将在我身上训练英语口语

我即将会变成她的朋友

也许其它什么

她的语气很亲切，性感

她的眼中有一种羡慕，爱意

你是哪个国家的？

中国的

什么？什么时候入籍？

我出生的时候

你父母什么时候入籍？

他们出生的时候

我是维吾尔族

尴尬冻结地铁

时间被误解停止

她不需要学习维吾尔语

也不感兴趣黄头发棕色眼睛的中国人

她眼中的羡慕

被傲慢消灭

她眼中的爱意

被误解强奸

地铁中被冻结的时间从她眼睛阅读

你不是老外

不值得关注……

2012年12月，于北京

直白派

朋友说

汉语的美丽

是一种隐含

我问

因没有言论自由？

朋友说

汉文诗歌需要比喻

我问

蝙蝠喜欢黑暗一样？

朋友说

你太直白

我问

敢说实话

是不是很没有诗意？

如果我写的不是诗歌

而是我的行为呢？

我是直白派

我相信

我相信

他们说两个离不开

汉族人离不开少数民族

少数民族离不开汉族

多么美丽的口号

多么甜蜜的诗句

我相信

在郑州被酒店拒住

在二七广场夜宿

地球与天空都是同一个

星星一样美丽

水果没有族界

我相信

能讲汉语好

我用汉语跟警察解释得很清楚

我是中国人

我相信维吾尔族不能住宿

跟会不会讲汉语没有一点关系

我相信

我更离不开警察

更离不开身份证

更离不开新疆

证件的价值

比我高

在我面前

证件无比自豪

他们

比我还相信

我是维吾尔

2013年4月 郑州

自治

汉族人能看的书，

我不能看

汉族人能说的话

我不能说

汉族人能做的事

我不能做

因为新疆特殊

我要依法治国

等一等

你水平不够了解什么是法律

暂时不合适

什么是爱

不要啰嗦

我们有自己的解释

什么是恨

不要装傻逼

我要自治

难道你不知道吗？

新疆本来很自治

你还想要啥？

看来你的毛病很严重

是不是需要治一治？

2013年 9月，乌鲁木齐

避难

我没有护照

无法出国

我唯一的选择是偷渡

但我害怕在边境被打死

也没有钱交给人贩子

我是爱的偷渡犯

虽然爱没有国籍

诗歌是我的避难所

自由无比

2013年10月，于乌鲁木齐

差别

几十年之前

在欧洲

禁止犹太人进去

——法西斯主义！

在中国

禁止华人与狗进去

——帝国主义！

如今

在以色列

阿拉伯人被墙隔离

——种族主义！

在北京

维吾尔人和西藏人禁止进去

——为了更多人的安全

在新疆

维吾尔人被便民卡隔离

——为了更多人的方便

人有差别

语言没有骨头！

2014年8月28日北京

情诗

吃大肉的唇？

能不能亲？

爱面前

是否存在清真？

维吾尔姑娘美丽，

会说话的眼睛

长发编四十条

汉族姑娘娇小玲珑

……

但是

维吾尔男人呢？

但是

汉族男人呢？

但是？

在中华大地

爱有它的族籍和性别

2014年9月，北京

朋友

我很久以前认识他

我们有过很好的来往

我认为他是很不错的人

他也认为我值得交流

但是没有做成朋友

因为他是汉族

因为我是维吾尔

他偶尔喝醉时给我打电话

他喝醉时跟维吾尔没什么差别

更亲切

他喝醉时

忘记装什么人

也忘记很多东西

有一天

我们一起去桑拿洗澡

他发现我受了割礼

其它都一样

我也发现

他的裸体更真实

但是

我喜欢穿短裤洗桑拿

他不是

从桑拿出来

他直接跟我说

我们为什么做不了朋友？

短裤的原因？

是的

政治是我们的短裤

性机器是我们的现实

2012年6月， 北京

被创造

我每天都发现

自己跟昨天不同

发现有不能去的地方

也有不能说的话

还有不能使用的才能

我每天都发现

我不应该长成这个模样

我不应该说这门语言

不应该有这个信仰

我每天都发现

身体在不断地改变

脚被鞋子缩小

脑袋被帽子压扁

衣服选择我穿还是不穿？

选择不断把我强奸……

我每天都发现

自己不断被重新创造

嘴巴越来越喜欢说

舒服舒服，好好好

2010年三月，乌鲁木齐

灰色的爱

小时候

爱被描述成水一样

能触及

爱，到底是什么模样

但是，很难解释清楚

但是，不能离开

无处不在

长大了

跟爱接触

发现它有好几种

像污水，像泉水，像泪水

被灰色的爱俘虏

每天被迫歌颂

也不能离开

也不能不在乎

唯一的结果——

不断地被迫

2011年10月，北京

死海

它是

被渴死的

在它的

渴以外

谁也不会被淹没

它

比海面还低

被渴

拉进地下

2014年10月，以色列海法

海法的猫

我不懂猫儿国的语言

不知哪儿有它们的词典

但我面前的两只猫

那么温情的看着我

一个用头蹭我的鞋拉近乎

另一只摇着尾巴撒娇，就像是我的孩子

谁说我们没有交谈?

跟猫交谈难道就必须有声音?

它们的声音是否包含语法，动词和名词?

它是只从未握过笔的猫

但天用另一种方式记录自己的诗

树叶是它的证人

蚂蚁也许是回顾者

也许它识字

透过你的眼睛

读懂你是什么样的人

你的体味告诉它你一直保密的历史

所以老人们说猫的心灵能辨别善恶

它们的词典

没有太多词汇

但足够诉说一切它们的句子

也许太柔软

像空气一样

充满一切

猫每蹭一下我的腿

我就想哭

想起某个人

一个虽讲維吾尔语

但根本无法沟通的人

我懂猫语

但我又从没学过。

那是秒懂

就像不用教就走起来的宝宝。

2015年12月5日 星期一  海法

（《海法的猫》原文是维吾尔语  译者：Uyghur from E.T ）

Translation: “He Deserves Respect”

The following interview with University of Haifa Professor Nimrod Baranovitch was conducted in Chinese by Tang Danhong on January 21, 2019, and translated to English by Anne Henochowicz. Dr. Baranovitch discusses his relationship with his former student, the Uyghur poet and scholar Ablet Abdurishit Berqi, also known by the pen name Tarim. Since 2017, Ablet Abdurishit Berqi has been one of hundreds of Uyghur intellectuals–themselves part of a group of Uyghurs and other ethnic minorities as large as two million–currently detained in a series of internment camps in Xinjiang. See also three of Tarim’s poems, or an excerpt of Tang’s essay “Tarim, a Uyghur Poet,” translated by CDT.

From 2014 to 2016, the Uyghur poet and scholar Ablet Abdurishit Berqi, who goes by the Chinese pen name Tarim (塔里木), went to University of Haifa in Israel to pursue advanced study of 20th century Uyghur literature. His advisor was Professor Nimrod Baranovitch. [1] After his fellowship ended, Dr. Berqi returned to Urumqi. In 2017 he was arrested. The details of when this occurred and where he was taken are unclear. Dr. Berqi is one of at least 338 Uyghur intellectuals and elites who have been detained, arrested, or forcibly disappeared since April 2017. According to conservative estimates, over one million Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and people of other Turkic minorities have been detained in Xinjiang’s “re-education camps.”

Tang Danhong: Professor Baranovitch, could you briefly introduce your field of research?

Dr. Baranovitch: I study China primarily from a cultural perspective: literature, poetry, pop songs, movies. For example, by looking at film in order to understand social and political issues. Twenty years ago, I started out studying Chinese pop music. My goal wasn’t to study pop music in and of itself, but to examine other social and political phenomena through pop. At that time I started to take interest in China’s ethnic minorities. Over the past two decades, most of my research has been related to ethnic minorities, mainly their artists and writers. For instance, I wrote several papers about the Mongolian musician Tenger, using his work to examine the situation of Mongolians in China. What are their experiences? Where does their ethnic identity stand? I’ve alsowritten about “Red Poppies” (尘埃落定) by the Tibetan writer Alai. Lately I’ve started to study the relationship between peoples and the natural world. How does environmental degradation affect China’s ethnic minorities? I’ve mainly looked at how degradation of the grasslands has impacted the lifeways of Mongolians, as well as how it has impacted their ways of thinking. For example, in 2011 there was widespread protest in Inner Mongolia. I looked at the relationship between the degradation of the grasslands and the demonstrations. I’m also planning to research Tibet and environmental change, how it has affected Tibetans. Recently I published a paper about Xinjiang, “The Impact of Environmental Pollution on Ethnic Unrest in Xinjiang: A Uyghur Perspective” (“Modern China,” 2018). Right now Xinjiang has serious air pollution. Beijing’s air quality is much better than before, but most people don’t know that many of the sources of Beijing’s air pollution have moved to Xinjiang, [as] many industries have moved to Xinjiang. I‘m exploring how air and water pollution affect Uyghurs and Han Chinese, as well as the tense relationship between Uyghurs and the state. I’ve also started to study how China’s language policy in Xinjiang affects the Uyghurs. How does this policy change the way Uyghurs speak and act? How have Uyghurs responded to the policy? Do they accept it? Who supports it, and who doesn’t? How do elements of the language policy lead Uyghurs to resentment, to feel that their language is about to disappear?

Tang: Your field of study is quite sensitive in China. Have you had any difficulties doing your research? Have you ever encountered Chinese [state] interference?

Baranovitch: I haven’t had that much difficulty. There was just one time, in 2013, when I arrived in Urumqi, I knew someone was following me. I was with Dr. Berqi at the time, the second time I had met him. There was also a time when I stayed in a hotel for one night, and the next day the staff told me, “You can’t stay here anymore. Because you’re a foreigner. This is China’s policy. Foreigners can’t stay at just any hotel.” Aside from that, I haven’t really been bothered.

Tang: Could you talk about Dr. Berqi? How did you two meet? What did he work on while he was in Israel? What impression did he give you?

Baranovitch: A friend introduced me to Dr. Berqi in 2004. It was my first time in Xinjiang. I was in Urumqi for a few days, and Dr. Berqi and I were together every day. You could say he was the first person I got to know in Xinjiang. We became good friends and stayed in touch from that point on. He is a living encyclopedia. We talked about all sorts of things, we got each other thinking and talking. Dr. Berqi is a very serious, rational scholar, but at the same time he has a sense of humor. He has a mischievous wit. We laugh a lot together. I love talking to him. He has a robust personality. On the one hand he has a scholar’s rationality, rigor, and sober analysis, and one the other he has the soul of a poet, full of spirit and feeling.

In 2014 Dr. Berqi came to Israel, he stayed in Israel for two years. During his time here, he wrote a scholarly article titled “Abduhaliq Uyghur,” about the famous Uyghur poet of the 1930s of the same name. Abduhaliq Uyghur is one of the leading figures of contemporary Uyghur literature. In the 1920s and 30s he wrote several hugely influential poems. He also started and lead a revolutionary organization of Uyghur intellectuals. Because of this he was murdered by the Chinese warlord Sheng Shicai. It was an excellent paper. Dr. Berqi submitted it to a scholarly journal in China. I don’t think they published it. Aside from this, he also wrote a paper about the short story “The Mustache Dispute” by the famous contemporary Uyghur writer Memtimin Hoshur. Memtimin Hoshur is a hilarious writer. In “The Mustache Dispute” he makes fun of the government messing with Uyghur customs, and he makes fun of how Uyghurs react. Dr. Berqi analyzed this short story in his paper. I really enjoyed that paper, and I encouraged him to translate it into English for publication. There are only a handful of people researching contemporary Uyghur literature, and Dr. Berqi is among them. During his time in Israel he went back once. The relevant authorities asked him to “drink tea” and told him not to publish these papers.

During Dr. Berqi’s two years in Israel we met almost every week, and each time it was for three or four hours. In total we had several hundred hours of conversation. Our discussions were wide-ranging. Dr. Berqi is naturally curious. He’s like a sponge–he has an uncanny ability to suck up new information. Whenever he gets to a place his eyes and ears are open, soaking it all in and processing all that information. Not long after he arrived in Israel, he delved into Israeli history, society, and politics. He has an incredibly powerful memory. When we were talking about history, you could see that he knew perfectly the time, cause, details, and outcome of the event we were discussing. We often talked about Israel, as well as China, Turkey, etc., and debated Israel’s relations with Turkey and the U.S. He didn’t just have a broad knowledge, he was always adding to it. His analytical and critical skills left a big impression on me.

Before coming to Israel, Dr. Berqi had never traveled abroad. Israel was his first time out of the country. He was so excited. He said, “This is the first time I’ve felt free, truly free!” Since the 90s, because he had once criticized the authorities, Dr. Berqi was threatened and monitored, directly and indirectly, on numerous occasions. The pressure reached its height in 2006. He was told that if he didn’t compromise or cooperate, terrible things would happen to his family. When he was teaching, he knew that every class had a student informant who would report what he said, so he wasn’t free in the classroom. Some of his colleagues would also warn him, don’t say this, don’t say that. In Israel, he said, “This is surreal! No one’s following me, no one’s ratting on me!” The first time he felt completely free. I’d say that Dr. Berqi was excited and cheerful the whole two years he was in Israel.

This is why I think he must be suffering terribly in the “reeducation camp” right now. Maybe some people have an easier time adapting to life in prison, but it must be hard for Dr. Berqi to get used to it. He so adores and cherishes freedom, and now he’s completely lost it. For him, prison is the cruelest punishment.

Besides academic articles, Dr. Berqi also wrote quite a few essays and poems about Israel, I believe 18 in total. The first essay he wrote after he got to Israel is “The Cats of Haifa.” He hadn’t been in Haifa for long when he noticed that there were cats in the streets, on campus, everywhere. They didn’t have owners but they coexisted with humans. Outside the cats sat on the public benches and the humans stood. He liked that image, and he thought it signified something more profound.

Tang: It seems he wasn’t too fond of Arabs? I remember he said that there were a few Arab students in his dormitory at University of Haifa, and it seems he wasn’t too fond of them. Did he talk to you about that?

Baranovitch: No, Dr. Berqi’s not like that. He wouldn’t dislike a group of people, he just doesn’t like to look at people through the lens of nationalism. He told me that he wanted to get to know the Arab students in his dorm, but they thought a Muslim coming to Israel to study, that was just like collaborating with the Israeli government, so they didn’t want anything to do with him. They didn’t understand how Dr. Berqi, as a Muslim, could choose to study in Israel.

Tang: You are Jewish and Dr. Berqi is Muslim. The way things are today, the relationship you and he have is especially meaningful…

Baranovitch: I’d like to talk for a moment about this issue of religious background that you’ve brought up. Yes, Dr. Berqi is Muslim, and I am Jewish. Since we first met over ten years ago we’ve always stayed in touch. We’re good friends. Dr. Berqi is Muslim from birth, but he isn’t a believer. Just like me, I’m Jewish but I don’t believe in Judaism. In Israel and the Middle East, Jews and Muslims, Jews and Arabs seem to be the worst of enemies, but in China, it dawns on you that Judaism and Islam have a lot in common. Many stories in Islam, its history and philosophy, originated in Judaism, they’re influenced by Judaism. Of course there are differences between Islam and Judaism, but they also have a lot in common, including many historical figures, like Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Muslims recognize the authority of these Jewish ancestors. Islam shares these ancestors and historical figures. The main difference is, just like Christianity, Islam has added some people, and Judaism doesn’t recognize these new prophets and people, but Christians and Muslims recognize the ancestors that came before, as well as their importance. Islam has also added its own ancestors. Muhammad is the last prophet. Jews don’t recognize him, but Muslims believe in Moussa (Moses) and other people. Of course, there’s also the concept of monotheism. The one God of Judaism and Islam is a shared God. From this perspective, the differences between Judaism and Islam are not so big. Compared to China, Muslims and Jews are really family, their philosophies are very close.

Dr. Berqi and I have laughed a lot together at extreme ideologies, he at the sickness of extremist Muslims, while I’ve ridiculed Jewish extremists. We agree on this point: no matter what the religion, it’s always bad when taken to the extreme. On this point we have never disagreed. Dr. Berqi is very open-minded. Our different religious backgrounds were never a problem. In fact, religion was for us a bridge, because we often found commonalities between our two faiths. And we both think it’s strange that Israel’s Jews and Muslims are always arguing with each other. It shouldn’t be this way.

Dr. Berqi reiterated to me that the majority of Uyghur intellectuals, while they are Muslim, aren’t believers. They don’t look at Israel and the Jews from a religious perspective, but from the perspective of history, and of an ethnic minority: The Jewish people have been oppressed for two thousand years. In that time they didn’t have their own land and country. Other peoples oppressed them. But in the end, the Jews succeeded in preserving their culture, preserving their identity… Many Uyghur intellectuals respect and admire the Jewish people. They see the Jews as an example of how an ethnic group can protect its culture, language, and customs. Of course, I also know that Dr. Berqi’s writings about Israel influenced many Uyghurs, it made them aware of Israel.

Actually, it’s not just Dr. Berqi. Many years ago, I heard the same ideas from many other Uyghur intellectuals. The Uyghurs who believe will look at Israel and the Jews from a religious perspective. They wouldn’t say these things. Uyghurs intellectuals, even though they’re Muslim, their viewpoint is more open and independent. They’re more inclined to look at Israel and the Jews from a national perspective, not a religious one. Also, many Uyghur intellectuals criticize Uyghur religious extremists. Dr. Berqi once said that Islam has lead some Uyghurs to become extreme. He often criticized this tendency. In fact, plenty of Uyghur intellectuals have spoken out against this kind of religious behavior among their own people.

Tang: I’ve noticed that some Israeli Jews think Israel should copy China and put Palestinians into camps. But in Europe and America we’ve also seen many Jews, scholars, also rabbis, speaking out about the suffering of the Uyghurs. Could you talk about your feelings on this?

Dr. Baranovitch: You’re thinking of something Oren Hazan said. He’s not worth your attention, really, he’s not important. I have some Uyghur friends living abroad, they also heard what Oren Hazan said. They asked me, “How could this be? How could the Knesset say that?” I told them, “It’s not the Knesset, it’s just one member who’s not worth bringing up. He’s said a lot of other idiotic things.” Don’t listen to him, and don’t assume that he represents Israel. I know there are some Israelis who think like Hazan. I’ve seen their responses to him, it’s undeniable. But I think the majority of Israelis, if they have sechel and enough information, wouldn’t buy into that. The average Israeli doesn’t know much about this, they really don’t even know, what is a Uyghur? Who are the Uyghurs? They don’t know exactly what’s going on, so most people don’t have anything to say about the situation in Xinjiang.

Tang: I haven’t met many Uyghurs. Dr. Berqi is the only Uyghur I’ve ever spoken to at length. He is willing to talk to Han people…

Dr. Baranovitch: I know there are Uyghurs who refuse to interact with or talk to Han people. But Dr. Berqi has more than a few Han friends. Even though he has a strong sense of his Uyghur identity, he doesn’t look at people through the lens of “nationality.” He goes beyond national consciousness and stays rooted in the “human” standpoint. He’ll talk about all kinds of issues with his Han friends. Sometimes he’ll criticize something head-on, like Han chauvinism, the government, etc., but he never cuts off contact with Han people. He’s friendly with many Han people. What he always emphasizes is the “human.” He respects everyone, including the Han. Dr. Berqi loves his own people and his mother tongue, but he never denies or belittles other cultures, he never denies or belittles other people, other languages. Since the 90s, he has occasionally written in Chinese. He looks for ways to vividly express himself, so when he has some inner feelings that are better suited to Chinese, he writes Chinese poetry. He has never advocated Xinjiang independence. He believes autonomy is the best and most realistic option. But he also believes that right now Xinjiang does not have true autonomy. Much of his criticism of the government focuses on this point. He has never supported violence or extreme methods.

It’s a shame to arrest someone like Dr. Berqi. It’s a big mistake. Now he’s lost his freedom and is getting “reeducated” somehow. Putting someone like him in prison defies all reason. I hope Dr. Berqi can get out of the “reeducation camp,” that he can continue his academic career. He deserves respect.

Tang: Besides Ablet, do you know any other Uyghur scholars or writers and artists who are in the “reeducation camps”?

Dr. Baranovitch: There are a few people who I know indirectly, for instance I know their family. It’s also possible that the people I know are already in the “reeducation camps,” but I don’t know that they are. Because so many people have already been arrested, and no one knows where they are.

Many of the people in my research have already been arrested. I’m not as close with them as I am with Dr. Berqi. For example there’s Professor Azat Sultan from Xinjiang Normal University. He’s one of the people I’ve studied. I think he’s being “reeducated”; there’s also a poet named Perhat Tursun, I’ve done research on his poetry. I think he’s there, too. And two famous singers: Abdurehim Heyit and Ablajan Awut Ayup, they’re in there. The latter has been hailed as Xinjiang’s Michael Jackson. He was sentenced to eight years. A lot of his songs are on YouTube. I haven’t been in direct contact with them, but because I’ve studied these people, I have their essays, poems, and songs. I know about what they’ve done and the work they’ve produced. There are just so many Uyghurs artists, writers, and intellectuals who are in the “reeducation camps” right now. [Chinese]

Notes:

【1】Nimrod Baranovitch: Born in Jerusalem in 1965. In 1992 he earned his BA in East Asian studies and music from the Hebrew University. He earned his PhD in music at the University of Pittsburgh in 1997. He is one of the founders of the Department of Asian Studies at the University of Haifa. He studies contemporary Chinese culture, society, and politics, focusing on popular culture and cultural politics, collective memory and history, ethnic minorities (primarily Mongolians, Uyghurs, and Tibetans), and the relationship of those minorities to the Han Chinese and to the Chinese state. Major work: China’s New Voices: Popular Music, Ethnicity, Gender, and Politics, 1978-1997, University of California Press, 2003. His papers have been published in the Journal of Asian Studies, The China Quarterly, Modern China, and The China Journal.

【2】This interview was conducted in Chinese.